As this season has developed, some really good questions have been asked by members in one-on-one. On reflection, these are good for all members to experience.
Q. How do you identify individuals when all data is for a tee group?
A. The data for any outing is collected for a group, but we do have each ID number for all players. For each outing each tee group is responsible for their management of Pace as well as rules (ball searches, lost ball drops, max nine strokes, and so on).
Over the season, most members play in different groups. Over time, the slowest members will have many more outings where they are in the slowest groups. Based on 2016 data, 75 to 85% of members will have none to 2 outings where they were “slow” for the 25 week season. Our slowest groups/members had many more outings where they were slow.
If a group of close friends always plays together and is frequently slow, all those members will be identified as “slow”.
Q. Our group got behind because two guys played really slow. After we were way behind, they wanted to catch up by skipping a hole and taking a 9 max. I was having a good round, why should I have to take a 9 because they were slow?
A. For any outing, if a group falls behind, ALL members of that group are responsible for taking action improve as early as possible.
For example, if someone searches too long, the other group members MUST get them to stop and play a new ball. If someone is over 8 strokes, others must get them to stop and record 9. If a member is having a health or mobility problem, his group members should act to help in any way that is reasonable. Be more active in getting them to their ball. Help them reduce the non-golf activities.
If a group is way behind, voluntarily skipping a hole and scoring 9 is needed and should be done. This is similar to having a marshal telling the group to move up. He won’t care if it was the “other cart”, he won’t care if it is a good round for you. You must move up then.
By the time skipping a hole is required, significant damage has been done. Several groups behind are already delayed. This will help, but still too late.
Q. I play with a couple of friends/carpool who are slow. They don’t cooperate when I suggest that they speed up, or point out Ready Golf. How can I not be branded as slow?
A. Do the best you can to RESPECTFULLY suggest that they speed up. Model good play behaviors. Stay aware of the group ahead and remind your group.
If they continue to be uncooperative, please advise the Pace of Play Committee of your concerns. We may be able to help get the point across to the others in your group.
Consider playing with other members. Fellowship is a key ingredient in the Association. Playing always with the same small group keeps you from meeting other members, making new friends, and playing at a better clip.
Telling your friends that you want to play in other groups may feel awkward but friendship is a dialogue. If they don’t respond to your needs you might question the value of the friendship.
Q. What information is used to identify slow groups? How is it used?
A. Historically we have used total time of play and the separation gap from the group immediately ahead. In our rules if groups play longer that 4 1/2 hours AND they finish more then 15 minutes later (separation) from the group ahead, the VP may use enforcement rules (warnings).
Data from 2016 showed significant time elements including courses, weather, cart usage (on course or Path Only), course crowding (A and B tees on Shotgun starts), 3somes or 4somes, and tee group position or order.
The Pace of Play Logs now collect more of this information plus members can make comments on the form.
For the start of 2017, we are collecting the times and conditions. We have standardized definitions for the times to record – Start Time, Finish Time, and Scorer Time. We calculate total times, min. max, and average play times, Start Gap, Finish Gap, Time Lost and Time Gained.
Plus, I have been refining the calculated times for total play time and the separation times.
For Total Play Time – we are still targeting course times (4 to 4 1/2 hours). But we know that Path Only will be slower. The fastest foursome group for the round becomes an “indicator” of course conditions – the best we could hope for, that course, that day, and so on. The Average Time Played is yet another indicator – 50% of groups played FASTER. Groups that are significantly (more than 10 minutes over average) will be looked at more closely. Groups that are 30 minutes or more more than average or an hour or more slower than the fastest group will have the most focus.
I’m looking now at Time Gained or Time Lost compared to the group immediately ahead. Example if you started 10 minutes after the group ahead AND you finished 10 minutes after the group ahead – Great! you kept up – playing at the same pace as the group ahead.
If you finished 20 minutes behind – not so good – you lost 10 minutes – almost a full hole. But if you were behind a really fast group and you played below the Average Time – I don’t see your group as a problem.
Shotgun Starts have special data problems. The calculations are adjusted for the A/B starts and the start separation – an A group on #5 will be finishing when the B group on #6 is just starting.
Also, slow groups impact more groups across the course.
General Guidelines
NO PROBLEMS
- Playing rounds in less than 4 hr 25 minutes
- Playing faster than Average Times for the round
- Playing 0 to 15 minutes over Average but Gaining Time on a slower group ahead (they delayed you)
SLOW GROUPS
- Playing more than 30 minutes over Average for the round
- Playing more than 60 minutes longer than the fastest foursome
- Playing more than Average AND Lost Time of 10 minutes or more (Finish Gap will be about 15 to 20 minutes)
SLOW PLAYERS
- Playing in “slow” groups frequently (more than 3 times)
Q. What will be done with “slow” groups and players?
A. Our rules currently allow for the VP to issue warnings for each incident of “slow play”. After at least 3 warnings, the VP may recommend sanctions up to and including termination of membership for specific players or groups.
We will begin enforcement for slow play starting June 1 2017.
Each Division VP will review the data and consider if and when warnings should be issued. VPs may request that slow groups “split up” or limit play (Split Tee Starts only and only as the last group starting). We may ask for “mentors” to play with some of the group to offer suggestions or to evaluate players ability to play at pace. We want the slow groups to improve.
Groups or players will be subject to membership termination for:
- Consistently and continuing Slow Play
- Lack of significant improvement – for the most part if the group simply plays 1 minute per hole faster that would make them 18 minutes faster. Big improvement – it can be done.
- Lack of cooperation
Q. We let a faster 3some play through. Why did we get identified as slow when we lost time for the play through and were letting group play faster.
A. If your total play time was over average and you finished more than 10 minutes behind the group immediately ahead, you would be highlighted as slow for that round. The 3 could not have played through if you were staying up with the group ahead of you. If you kept up with your original forward group, or the 3some, no problems. If the group behind the 3some caught up to your group, more evidence that your group was slow for course, conditions, and field that day.
If you made comments about the play through on the Pace of Play Log, it would help all to understand and correct the calculations.
Q. My number showed up in two different groups for the same outing, how can you punish me when data is wrong?
A. Data entry on the log sheets is not perfect. Sloppy handwriting, erasures, transposed numbers, wrong numbers – all happen. This is same as Universal Scorecards and some members miss a flight prize because they signed on an incorrect scorecard. This happens on every outing in every Division. Even with Starters and Scorers reviewing the data, we have errors. The good news,
- We are looking for ONLY the slowest groups, usually only 1 to 3 groups per outing
- We are only looking for consistently slow groups/individuals – 3 rounds minimum.
- If you (your group) enter the data on the Pace Log sheet, maybe you will get it right (Starters and Scorers can make mistakes in moving information from USC to Log Sheets)
- The data will be available and you can challenge when you see an error.
- VPs and Pace of Play Committee (and ultimately Board) will oversee data and any enforcement
- We don’t want to punish anyone, we are simply asking them to play a little faster and be considerate of all our other members.
- With 7 weeks, we have over 2600 member/times entered. There were a few garbled numbers, a few transposes, and I’m sure somewhere I keyed in something wrong. But, I’m confident that error rates are low and will have almost no impact on identifying our consistently slower players.
- Finally, if our slowest groups improve 1 minute or two a hole, we won’t have to do any of this.
Thanks for the above, Dave. If everyone reads this and follows the rules, there shouldn’t be any slaps on the hand for slow play. It not only slows play, but affects the bottom line score of golfers behind them. Standing around waiting is the worst thing a golfer can do. Pace of play is so important.
Thanks again.
Thanks Greg.
Pace of Play is as much a part of golf as anything. It is respect for others on the course. It is a key part of golf etiquette.
Golfers who don’t keep track of their position on the course, who don’t stay up or know when they are slow and who don’t take action to speed up/improve, are essentially thinking only of themselves. This is disrespectful of everyone else on the course.
It really does not take much to improve – 30 seconds to 1 minute per hole saved would make everyone happier. Nothing lost, huge gains.
Dave, We appreciate what you are doing to speed up play. I do have a few comments, first on May 18th I was listed for slow play. My number 4885 was listed on a group that played in 5:10 and lost 23 minutes, it was also listed in a group that played in 4:46 and gained 14 minutes. I was in the later group, and I would appreciate it if you corrected the data.
Slow play was a significant problem 2 years ago when it was common to take 5 1/2 hours to play a round. It has improved significantly and typically takes 4 1/2 hours now.
I am concerned with 3 things, (1) we really are seniors and cannot be expected to play in less time than other younger people, (2) poorer players, which many of us are, cannot play as fast as better players. Are we trying to get rid of older players? If not then we need to consider that taking 4 or 5 strokes to play a hole takes less time than taking 7 or 8 strokes to play the some hole, (3) If you are playing behind a slow group it is IMPOSSIBLE to speed up your own groups play. We played behind a group on Thursday that we waited for on each and every hole!!!! We could not possibly have played any faster!! And they were also waiting for a group in front of them.
Maybe you better read the reason for forming the Metro Seniors – Good fellowship and golf- sounds like we may be getting away form that. If that is going to be our approach, it may be time to look for another golf league.
Gary – thanks for the comments. Several points for you and audience.
A. Incorrect data. As I sent you, you number was repeated by Starters or Scorers, incorrectly and i have corrected. Errors do happen, and so far only a few have emerged. These have been transposition, bad handwriting, or simply unreadable. I prefer members to fill out logs, not Starters/Scorers. Eliminates blaming on Starter/Scorers.
B. Thanks for noting improvements. We are running at about 10 minutes faster than 2016. 4:40 vs 4:49. HOWEVER, about 25% or members are still experiencing 5+ hour rounds. However, on the same courses, several groups are playing at 4:00 to 4:15. 7% of our membership played in slow groups that averaged over 4:50 AND lost 10 to 30 minutes against the group ahead. However, these groups slowed as much as 40% of groups on the course. So for those people stuck behind a slow group, pace of play is still a significant problem. (as you noted when you were held up.)
To your points:
1. Yes we are seniors. We are targeting 4:30 average (not 3:30). We have lots of data that show that several groups in each outing play at 4 to 4:15 on almost every course. 2. Average for score for 2016 was about 100, all players, all divisions. We can all point to A and D players who are slooooooooow. Likewise I have data to show that many of our old, D players are as quick as anyone. MOST of time losses are about not being READY to play. George Arft’s points are well worth reading for fixing time wasters. https://www.golfstlseniors.org/what-can-you-do-to-play-faster/
3. If you are behind a slow group and you are running behind pace (2 to 2:15 for 9 holes), consider asking them RESPECTFULLY to pick up the pace. However, it probably is not their fault. Someone 3 or 4 groups ahead may be the culprit. Your next job is to stay up with the group ahead. We WILL NOT penalize you if your group stays up. However if you fall 10 or more minutes behind, you are now part of the problem.
4. I can assure you that I have read, re-read both the Constitution and By-Laws several times. I als have read, edited and written the Rules and Regulations as part of my duties for the Board, as an officer, and as Chair of the Pace of Play COmmittee. The Pace of Play Committee with more than a dozen members from all divisions put in many hours to make sure we were doing the best for our membership. We also reviewed and received approval from the Board of Governors.
The issues of competitive golf with fellowship, integrity, honesty, respect, etiquette, fairness, rules and more are very much the fabric of golf that Metro Seniors works hard to maintain. Being willing and able to play at a reasonable pace is important to etiquette, respect for others, competition, and fellowship. We have changed rules, reorganized, and more to help improve pace. But member cooperation and simple behavior are the most important part of pace.
If members cannot or will not play at pace or will nit cooperate and start showing improvement, then Metro Seniors is simply not the league for them. We cannot do everything for everyone.
But I still point out that if our slowest groups simply play 1 minute faster per hole, they will be able to meet our pace requirements. Perhaps one player is the “problem”. Help him. Coach him. Encourage him. That is fellowship.
Everyone will have a bad round or two. It is your responsibility to keep a bad hole or round from hurting 10 or 20 others on the course behind you.
If players are chronically slow, and holding up others several times over a portion of the season, we will ask them to improve. If they do not start improving quickly, they will start seeing sanctions up to and including termination of membership. This has been part of our rules since before I joined.